"Belisarius left Constantinople as a soldier of Rome and returned a cringe worthy Libertarian." Age: 27 - Canadian - Male - Catholic - MA History of Warfare - Socially Conservative - Libertarian - Obsessed with WWI - I have a military history side blog, @at-the-sharp-end
You know whose story I really want to know? Like…I’d like to read a whole book about?
Bór & his sons. The Easterlings who allied with Morgoth & entered the service of Maedhros & Maglor but changed alliance & stayed faithful & died fighting in the Nirnaeth after they killed the traitors of the house of Ulfang & posthumously gained the title ‘the faithful’.
What legends.
They must have known what consequences awaited them if they betrayed Melkor. What bravery.
Why is there no content about them in the fandom? Why are they so underrated?
They’re so interesting.
I need to know their full story.
Perhaps their descendants were among those Easterlings and Haradrim that were turned against Sauron by the Blue Wizards?
Team Green: Sorry your faves are boring 😊🤷♂️ Sure you’re supposed to root for the Blacks but the Greens are just more fun. Jace is boring I’m here for my angsty disaster mess 💚
You realise that’s bad writing, right? This is a family civil war drama. One side of that family civil war shouldn’t be populated with blank slates. If no effort is made into making Rhaenyra and Daemon’s children as fleshed out as Alicent’s children then that is bad writing.
Some people find the Lannisters more fun than the Starks, but the Starks are still fleshed out characters (and considering in the books Jace is 14/15, Luke is 13, Joffrey, Baela & Rhaena are 12, Aegon the younger is 9 and Viserys is 7 - these kids ages almost map straight onto the Starklings so they were so meant to be our Targlings). It didn’t have to be a zero sum “you can only have ONE side that’s interesting”. The show is poorer for it. Game of Thrones was a disaster in many ways, but at least the different sides of the conflict had equal screen time and attention.
How hard would it have been to flesh out Jace, or at least give him a half-decent haircut? He could have been a mirror to Jon Snow (they technically have the same initials). One is a bastard who does not know he’s a targaryen prince, the other is a targaryen prince who discovers he is a bastard. In a world that hates bastards, that insists they are ‘wanton and treacherous by nature’, there was plenty of potential to explore some complicated emotions, to give weight to how he feels about being a bastard. The whispers that would have followed him, the scrutiny he would have felt, the internalised guilt and shame, his protectiveness over his little brothers and wish to spare them the truth. Maybe after Alicent confronted Aegon over the pig there could have been a shift where Aegon turns his bullying away from Aemond and towards Jace (more in keeping with book canon). Maybe Jace could feel anxious about lessons with Criston Cole due to his open hatred of him. Maybe he could be equal parts devoted to and resentful of his mother over his parentage, maybe he could be driven to perfectionism to prove himself worthy.
The show made Jace more violent in the fight with Aemond than in the book, by changing who started the fight (from Aemond to Rhaena and co.), by narrowing the age gap to make Jace more of a match for Aemond, and by having him draw a knife instead of a wooden toy sword. But they didn’t earn that moment. How much more satisfying would it have been if both Aemond and Jace were given equal emotional weight in the build-up to the fight? If the hurt and anxiety at discovering he was a bastard had been building and building until it burst out. The entire reason the show changed the age dynamic between Rhaenyra and Alicent to make them peers and best friends was supposedly to make their conflict more dramatic - why would you then drop that approach with their kids? How does it make the civil war story better if one half of the next generation of characters aren’t really characters?
They didn’t even have to put much effort into Baela, as GRRM already had her brimming with personality on the page, but they just… ignored that and made her a non-entity. Oh she gets one punch in, and there’s a blink and you’ll miss it background shot of her trying to hit Aegon (at this point I don’t think the actors were even directed to do that I think they just took it upon themselves). Meanwhile Baela in the books is wild and fearless and deliberately provocative and quick to anger and fiercely defensive of her loved ones and wrestles squires in the training yard and has a pet monkey and sneaks out in search of adventure and brings home 'unsuitable’ friends. Including a legless beggar, a blacksmith’s apprentice whose muscles she admired, a street conjurer, twin prostitutes and an entire troupe of mummers. And she alarms everyone due to being 'overly fond of boys’ and gets epic lines like this when it is suggested she marry Lord Rowan:
“I’ve bedded two of his sons. The eldest and thirdborn, I think it was. Not both at once, that would have been improper.”
She could have been an absolutely chaotic presence onscreen. Rhaena meanwhile is a little more like Sansa to Baela’s Arya, but would have needed more work to flesh her out onscreen. Her insecurities and wish for a dragon seemed promising at first, but they were dropped as soon as Aemond lost his eye. Because that was ultimately the narrative purpose she served - to provide a new reason for the fight to start that wasn’t Aemond hitting and pushing a toddler into a pile of dragon poo. She helps Aemond’s image by being the one to start the fight instead of him, and from then on she becomes a voiceless non-entity. We watch Aemond fly away victoriously on Vhagar, we don’t see Rhaena tearfully watching the last link to her mother vanish over the horizon.
Considering the prominent role of bastards during the dance (especially the dragonseeds), the uninterest in exploring bastardy in Jace makes little sense. Considering the centrality of gender to the story (and considering a certain event involving key players during the dance), the lack of effort into Baela and Rhaena makes zero sense (the show doesn’t even bring up their right to Driftmark in an episode dedicated to discussing the rightful heir to Driftmark).
Considering especially that in fantasy black women are so often consigned to minor Missandei roles, the fact that we were robbed of Baela and Rhaena as main characters particularly stings. Baela in particular was an easy fan favourite in the book, and its a role that black women and girls so rarely get to play. If you had told me before the show that Helaena would be a fan favourite over Baela, I wouldn’t have believed it. And don’t get me wrong, I like that they fleshed out Helaena in the show, like Rhaena she didn’t have much of a presence in the book. But it is so typical that the relative non-entity that they kept white gets to be fleshed out, while the more fleshed out character that they made black becomes a non-entity. And Helaena is skinny now, of course (all love to Phia Saban, but I am mourning plump Helaena).
And don’t get me started on Kylo Raemond.
The thing about Baela is that we barely learn anything about her until she becomes immediately relevant to the plot, which is during Aegon’s capture of Dragonstone. Prior to that, the only appearance she makes is when she insists on flying into battle with Jace for the planned attack on King’s Landing; he denies her this, and we’re told that he refuses to marry her until the war is over, which is just dumb given that he’s already promised a daughter he doesn’t have for a marriage alliance (unless the Sara Snow story IS true). All the stuff about her being this promiscuous, spunky, tomboy girlboss is characterization that George gives towards the end of the Dance or after it.
As for Jace, outside his winning over the North and Vale via “talk-no-jutsu” and losing his only battle because of the sun, Jace has no impact on the story of the Dance. It would have been great if they’d tried to explore Jace’s feelings towards his being a bastard; for all that he tells Luke that it doesn’t matter (suggesting Rhaenyra’s gaslighting worked with one kid at least), he flies off the handle at the slightest provocation from Aemond during the dinner. They do have a chance to explore this if they go the Sara Snow route, which they should, if only to have Cregan’s alliance make a lick of sense.
@duxbelisarius It doesn’t really matter at which chronological point in the fictional history book that GRRM included Baela’s characterisation. The characterisation was there in the book for the HOTD writers to draw from when writing the show. Since the book is written in the format of a history book it isn’t going to focus on the character details that ASOIAF does, not until the fictional historian considers it relevant. So that characterisation still existed before and during the dance, even though the historian didn’t mention it. Adapting a fictional history book into a show requires a great deal of invention to tell a story with the human details that a historian wouldn’t prioritise. And again, the source material painted a picture of Baela for the writers to draw from that they wasted.
I imagine Jace refused to marry Baela because he was 14 and she was 12. And later he arranges with Cregan for a marriage alliance with any future children they might have, which is normal in westeros. As for denying her flying into battle, again she’s 12 in the book, and her dragon isn’t large enough to fly yet at the time.
I don’t really see how winning over key allies who ultimately won the Dance counts as having no impact. Its impressive diplomacy considering Jace was only 14. He was also active in his mother’s council, busied himself with arrangements for his siblings safety, and it was his idea to the turn to the Dragonseeds for new dragon riders and argued for their legitimisation. Even then, a character doesn’t have to always be successful in battle to be an important character in a story, especially a story that is about a family being torn apart by civil war. The human story is more important than the military outcome.
Cregan’s alliance also doesn’t only make sense if Jace marries Sara??? Cregan befriends Jace himself for starters, and clearly allies himself with the blacks because he recognises Rhaenyra as Viserys’ heir, honours his vow, respects Jace’s qualities as heir regardless of rumours of bastardy, and personally relates because he was also usurped by his uncle.
Jace flying off the handle could have been earned if his feelings about being a bastard were ever explored. For instance if he tells himself he doesn’t care, but its still a wound and he can’t always keep his temper (like Jon Snow), especially if they had gone down the perfectionist-to-prove-his-worth route that meant he didn’t always express his anger.
And oh my god people need to stop misusing the term gaslighting 😂 gaslighting is when you try to convince someone to question their sanity or perception of reality. In the show we see Rhaenyra respond to Jace asking her if he is a bastard by telling him that all that matters is that he is a targaryen - she doesn’t lie and tell him he’s not a bastard, she tells him what she believes matters (because guess what, bastardy is a social construct). The next time it is brought up, Jace is openly saying they should be at Harrenhall mourning Harwin, and Rhaenyra tells him they can’t be seen to do so, in careful terms because there is a risk of being overheard. It is very clear that Jace is aware who is father is, and that this conversation is about what they can admit openly in front of others. Subtext and context matters.
In Luke’s case its also clear he knows, there is no indication that Rhaenyra has been hiding his parentage from him. And even if she had, that wouldn’t qualify as gaslighting. Lying to your kid or keeping stuff from them isn’t gaslighting (though it can definitely be wrong depending on the context). Gaslighting would be if Luke kept confronting her and telling her that he knows the truth and Rhaenyra kept acting confused and asking 'what are you talking about?’. Because that would be actively manipulating her kid into questioning his perception of reality.
As for the claim that Rhaenyra is gaslighting everyone else about her kids 😂 well first off Baratheon and Arryn genes give her deniability so jot that down. Second off, she isn’t trying to get people to question their sanity. She’s lying, certainly, and people don’t believe her*, but they aren’t being psychologically manipulated. Whatever your feelings about Rhaenyra being in the right or the wrong for lying, its just false to say she’s gaslighting. That is a heavily incorrect use of the term.
*and half the realm are team Rhaenyra anyway because they clearly don’t care that Jace is a bastard
It matters quote a lot at which point George introduces Baela’s characterization, because as you yourself admit, Baela is 12 when the Dance begins and c.14 when Dragonstone falls, so unless Daemon and Rhaenyra were somehow allowing a 12 year old to have intimate relations with older boys and men, you can’ just assume that’s how her character was previously.
As to their ages impeding their marriage, it would only impede their producing an heir: Jace can marry Baela without bedding her, esp given how Luke is dead and Rhaena has no betrothal, making Jace and Baela the only way to properly link Rhaenyra to House Velaryon.
Those allies didn’t “ultimately win the Dance,” the closest to that was the Vale. The North had no impact on the Dance aside from the Winterwolves, and Cregan arrived after the conflict was over. The Valemen landed in KL only after Aegon was dead and the Lads had taken the city. So no, Jace’s diplomacy had no effect on the outcome of the Dance. Jace also lost his first battle because he took no precautions against an attack on Driftmark despite being in the middle of planning a major operation AND having been warned of the Triarchy’s presence by Aegon the Younger. If there were dragons in the air and ships conducting contact patrols and screening operations, as you would EXPECT of a major fleet with air power supporting it, Jace doesn’t die and the Gullet isn’t a disaster.
Sending his two younger brothers to Pentos, right next door to the Stepstones and the Triarchy, instead of sending them to Braavos, or to the Vale like Joff and Rhaena, is not keeping siblings safe. Giving dragons to randos, two of whom are complete nutcases and POS (one of whom is a bastard of House Velaryon!) isn’t good strategy either.
Jace didn’t spend a significant amount of time in the North, so the idea that he suddenly became friends with the Lord Paramount whose own authority he just bypassed by making an alliance with the Manderlys over Cregan’s head, is unlikely. Marrying that lord’s sister, promising his first daughter through THAT marriage to Winterfell, and guaranteeing that one of stark blood will sit the iron throne, makes far more sense. Cregan swore no oath to Rhaenyra, his father did, and that oath wad legally dead the moment Aegon was born and Viserys had a son to succeed him. Cregan wasn’t usurped, his uncle was unwilling to hand the North over to a 16 year old, and Cregan threw him in jail (and faced NO consequences from his bannermen, conveniently).
It doesn’t matter if she had their biological father in her life, which was stupid anyways given that it leant credence to her sons being bastards. She gaslights her sons by lying to the about their bastardy not mattering, something she only gets away with because Viserys is a terrible father and George and the show writers ignored inworld prejudice so they could have their story their way.
None of her sons look like her or Laenor; neither she nor her mother had any Arryn traits, nor did Rhaenys children have any Baratheon traits. F&B tells us the boys look like Harwin, and the show reinforces this. She has no plausible deniability; the only defense she has is George and the show writers.
Just to further my point, it makes even less sense that we’ll over half the realm (Iron Islands, Vale, North, Riverlands, 70% of the Reach, 50% of the Crownlands) would support a princess with obvious bastards and no claim, when 30 years earlier they voted 20 to 1 to defy Andal Law and deny Laenor Velaryon his claim to the throne, because the idea of him owing his claim to his mother at all was anathema to the 7K. You complain about bad writing afflicting Jace and Baela, but the entirety of the Dance is a poorly written mess. The show is just following suit from the source material, albeit making things worse along the way.
@duxbelisarius I think its safe to assume that while having relations with boys and men came when Baela was older, she did have a personality prior to the dance. She wasn’t a blank state waiting in stasis until the dance was over, so it’s safe to assume that every other age-appropriate aspect of her personality was present when she was 12, like being a tomboy. Though Daemon did get a letter during the Dance from a worried maester telling hims his daughter was 'overly fond of boys’, and she did play innocent kissing games with boys as a kid. So, yeah I will assume she had a personality.
Since Rhaenyra is married to Baela’s father, I think Baela and Rhaena are pretty invested in Rhaenyra’s cause without having to get married aged 12. I mean, by your logic why didn’t Laena and Rhaenyra get the kids married earlier when they first agreed to betroth them? Because there’s no need to get the kids hitched that young, that’s why.
The Vale was one of the allies that Jace secured. So there’s that. And it was the presence of Cregan’s massive northern army that contributed to the powerful Green seats of Storms End, Casterly Rock and Oldtown deciding not to keep fighting. And yeah, the 14-year-old made some military mistakes. If you want a story where everything goes smoothly and perfectly and there’s no tragedy, then idk go watch a disney movie I guess. Do you think ASOIAF is stupid for the mistakes Robb Stark made, or do you think its tragic and compelling?
It’s a war where dragons turn the tide, so having more dragons on your side is a good idea. Especially when the other side has Vhagar. It did turn out to be gamble in the case of Ulf the White and Hugh Hammer, but Addam, Alyn and Nettles were loyal, and Addam and Alyn weren’t randos, they were Corlys Velaryon’s sons. It’s an understandable gamble, and Nettles in particular is thematically important as she challenges the myth of targ supremacy. Yeah two of them are bastards of house velaryon, and Jace argued in favour of their legitimisation. Probably because he sympathised with them. The whole point of the dragonseeds is that bastards are, surprise surprise, no more or less capable of treachery than 'trueborn’. It challenges the lie behind the stigma.
With Lord Manderly there had been a promised alliance with House Targaryen before that didn’t pan out due to Viserra’s death, so Jace was merely honouring that by agreeing to betroth his little brother Joffrey (who will be behind Jace’s children in the line of succession) to Lord Manderly’s daughter. Cregan got the more rewarding marriage offer, to marry his son to Jace’s future daughter. And evidence suggests they got along.
Munkun’s True Telling says that Cregan and Jacaerys took a liking to each other, for the boy prince reminded the Lord of Winterfell of his own younger brother, who had died ten years before. They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood, sealed in blood.
Also, Cregan was usurped, because 16 is the age of majority in Westeros. That’s the legal age where the uncle was supposed to hand over power. And it is generally approved of for sons to honour their father’s oaths, and that oath was not 'legally dead’ because Viserys never removed Rhaenyra as heir. I get the feeling you’re one of those 'but the grand council’ people, but just because the greens like to claim that the grand council codified male inheritance of the iron throne into law doesn’t make it true. The decision at the council was to choose between two claimants, because Jaehaerys knew that if he did try to codify it then Alysanne’s ghost would flay him alive.
Telling your child that the world’s prejudices are wrong isn’t gaslighting. Again, gaslighting would be if she tried to pretend there was no stigma against bastards, and manipulated her kids whenever they brought up evidence that there are plenty of bigots who hate bastards. Also, seriously, George ignored inworld prejudice so he could have the story his way? It’s his story! He wrote it to critique that prejudice! There’s this book series you may have heard of called A Song Of Ice And Fire, it’s really good, one of the main characters is called Jon Snow-
Well if Rhaenyra has no Arryn traits, and Rhaenys’ children have no Baratheon traits, and Alicent’s children have no Hightower traits, and Jaehaerys son of Alyssa Velaryon is the whitest old man I’ve ever seen, then maybe genetics are just too weird in this universe to draw any conclusions. The boys are Harwin’s I don’t deny that, but she does have wiggle room to pass them off as Laenor’s, that explains why many people are fine to let it slide (look up rumoured royal bastards and that attitude is actually more common than you’d think, because the reality is that despite societal prejudices you also have always had people just being people).
'Viserys is a terrible father’ yes in many ways but tbh considering he’s half a corpse, terminally ill and high on milk of the poppy I cut him some slack. Also consider that Laenor claimed the sons as his own, and that very early on in the book Rhaenyra and Laena arranged for their kids betrothals. Since Laenor and Laena have a claim to the throne in their own right, appeasing the Velaryons by supporting Jace and Baela as the future King and Queen is actually a good move to make things right after Rhaenys was passed over.
It makes perfect sense for half the realm to support Rhaenyra, because she does have a claim, and in the book had been training for the role since she was 8 and has 5 sons to follow her. Laenor was only a baby when they voted against him. Jaehaerys bane of women Targaryen was also very clearly not backing Rhaenys - the fact that he called the council at all was his cowardly way of bypassing her while keeping his hands clean. Whereas Viserys was very clearly backing Rhaenyra since she was 8, and that gave the lords years to grow accustomed to her eventual rule.
Finally, GRRM wrote a story critiquing misogyny and bigotry against bastards, and wrote a fictional history book from the point of view of people who hold those prejudices as a way to critique biased historiographies. I love it, but if you don’t like that, if you think its poorly written, then you are entitled to that opinion. But I don’t get why you’re putting yourself through engaging with his work when you could find a more conservative book series more to your liking.
“I mean, by your logic why didn’t Laena and Rhaenyra get the kids married earlier when they first agreed to betroth them? Because there’s no need to get the kids hitched that young, that’s why.“
The issue here being that Baela and Jace remain unmarried during the war, despite Baela’s stated intentions of marrying Jace. And now that the show seems to have decided to age up Rhaenyra and Daemon’s kids, it makes even less sense for them to remain unmarried.
“And it was the presence of Cregan’s massive northern army that contributed to the powerful Green seats of Storms End, Casterly Rock and Oldtown deciding not to keep fighting.”
The Northern Armies had nothing to do with this; the Westerlands was unable to continue fighting because of Dalton Greyjoy; Lyonel Hightower either chose Samantha Tarly’s ‘nookie’ over his father’s cause or was forced to choose peace by the Tyrells threatening his brother Garmund; and Elandra Baratheon chose to cease hostilities after receiving word of Borros’ death at the Kingsroad. If Cregan had had his way, these houses would have been forced to CONTINUE the war as he sought to raze their seats and crush their remaining armies.
“And yeah, the 14-year-old made some military mistakes. If you want a story where everything goes smoothly and perfectly and there’s no tragedy, then idk go watch a disney movie I guess. Do you think ASOIAF is stupid for the mistakes Robb Stark made, or do you think its tragic and compelling?“
Considering one of the great military leaders of the Dance is LITERALLY 13 years old, this argument has little weight. Even if we assume that Jace was 14 and thus couldn’t be relied upon to make proper decisions, Corlys Velaryon also comes off as a complete moron for the same reasons as Jace does. Providing basic screening and security for your naval forces doesn’t require you to be Sun Tzu or Alexander the Great; you just have to want to ensure that you aren’t surprised by enemy forces, esp. ones that you know are there because your step brother arrived a few days ago at least on a dying dragon, warning you of impending attack. I fully expect characters to make mistakes; my issue is when the writer themselves appears unaware that a mistake was made, or actively appears unaware of inconsistencies within their own story. I’m not asking for or expecting perfection, just a bare-minimum of quality control.
“It’s a war where dragons turn the tide, so having more dragons on your side is a good idea. Especially when the other side has Vhagar.“
I’m going to plug my own analysis that I’ve done of the Dance now, so that you know I’m not just some rando that decided randomly to complain about ASOIAF today. The issue with this argument is that the war isn’t won by dragons at all, and the side with the most dragons only uses them en masse twice in the entire conflict. George goes out of his way to set-up the dragons as a giant chekhov’s gun, but then proceeds to do nothing with them; he gives Rhaenyra most of the Reach as allies, but has Daemon sit on his butt at Harrenhal when supporting Rowan and Caswell could easily have delivered victory to the Blacks before the war even got into full swing. Instead Daeron single-handedly saves the entire Green war effort at the Honeywine, because apparently it never occurred to the Blacks that the region with the largest agricultural production and the biggest armies might warrant greater attention?
“With Lord Manderly there had been a promised alliance with House Targaryen before that didn’t pan out due to Viserra’s death,“
But we have no evidence that Jace is aware of this, in fact it is Lord Manderly who in forms HIM of the prior arrangement with Viserra; so we’re still left with Jace going over the head of Cregan Stark to negotiate directly with his bannermen, despite the difficult situation this could create for Cregan if he didn’t fall in line with his bannerman.
“Munkun’s True Telling says that Cregan and Jacaerys took a liking to each other, for the boy prince reminded the Lord of Winterfell of his own younger brother, who had died ten years before. They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood, sealed in blood.“
You conveniently leave out the part where this is Munkun’s theory, not a 100% factual account of events; Gyldan does state that it’s more likely than the account of Septon Eustace and Mushroom’s tale of Sara Snow, but it is not presented as THE account of Jace’s meeting with Cregan, just the one that Gyldan deems to be most plausible. As to Bennard Stark, he is described as ‘slow’ to relingquish his power and imposing ‘limits’ on Cregan’s power; if he had usurped him, he never would have given up any of these powers to begin with. This may seem like splitting hairs but it’s by no means explicit that Bennard was trying to deny Cregan his birthright altogether. It would be nice to get more info about this whole affair, but we’re left with only F&B and TWOIAF, which offers little beyond.
“Also, seriously, George ignored inworld prejudice so he could have the story his way? It’s his story! He wrote it to critique that prejudice! There’s this book series you may have heard of called A Song Of Ice And Fire, it’s really good, one of the main characters is called Jon Snow-“
In this case, yes, he absolutely did ignore the prejudice against bastards that he previously established in his own works; the fact that more than half the realm aligns itself with Rhaenyra without any qualms or misgivings about the widespread and well-supported rumours of her own heirs bastardy is proof positive. At least in the animated histories made for Game of Thrones, they give Rhaenyra’s sons white Valyrian hair, so it’s understandable why the Greens claims of bastardy would be doubted. Instead, Fire and Blood and now HOTD make it clear that Joff, Jace and Luke were illegitimate; I’m not saying that I agree with the prejudice against Bastards in ASOIAF, I’m saying that George did not consistently apply it in the case of the Dance, as doing so would have interfered with his intentions for the story. If telling a story requires you to blatantly contradict your own previously established world-building, it means you need to rethink or recalibrate your approach to telling that story.
“Well if Rhaenyra has no Arryn traits, and Rhaenys’ children have no Baratheon traits, and Alicent’s children have no Hightower traits, and Jaehaerys son of Alyssa Velaryon is the whitest old man I’ve ever seen, then maybe genetics are just too weird in this universe to draw any conclusions.”
Then I guess Ned Stark was just a wacko for challenging Joffrey Baratheon’s parentage, as were Jon Arryn and Stannis Baratheon? I guess Lynesse and Alerie Hightower having blonde/silver hair is of no significance here?
“'Viserys is a terrible father’ yes in many ways but tbh considering he’s half a corpse, terminally ill and high on milk of the poppy I cut him some slack. Also consider that Laenor claimed the sons as his own, and that very early on in the book Rhaenyra and Laena arranged for their kids betrothals. Since Laenor and Laena have a claim to the throne in their own right, appeasing the Velaryons by supporting Jace and Baela as the future King and Queen is actually a good move to make things right after Rhaenys was passed over.“
Robert Baratheon claimed his children by Cersei; doesn’t make them any less illegitimate than they are. Nor can you cite Fire and Blood and then try to use show canon to support your claims; Viserys was not as afflicted in the books as he was in the show, and still ignored Rhaenyra’s obvious lying and deceit to the detriment of the realm, and in the show he STILL does so. Once again, the only reasons she can assure her sons that their bastardy doesn’t matter is because her father and the writers shield her from the consequences of her actions. This is perfectly encapsulated in the show by Rhaenyra telling Luke that she will help prepare him for ruling Driftmark just like her father helped her. And yet we never see Viserys helping Rhaenyra to rule, or we never see that it resulted in her being ready to rule. She insists that they boys need not worry, just as Jace insists to Luke that there bastardy doesn’t matter; but neither Rhaenyra nor Jace can truly back-up their claims.
“It makes perfect sense for half the realm to support Rhaenyra, because she does have a claim, and in the book had been training for the role since she was 8 and has 5 sons to follow her. Laenor was only a baby when they voted against him.“
Laenor was 7 and had already claimed a dragon by the time of the Council of 101; the council denying him his claim on account of it deriving from his mother was unjust, but that makes it less likely and not more likely that those same lords and their descendants would suddenly support Rhaenyra’s claim over Aegon’s.
“I love it, but if you don’t like that, if you think its poorly written, then you are entitled to that opinion. But I don’t get why you’re putting yourself through engaging with his work when you could find a more conservative book series more to your liking.“
You are correct to state that George wrote his books the way he did to critique those ideas, and I don’t take issue with that at all. I take issue with him actively ignoring the world-building that he established in his previous works in order to sell us a bad, nonsensically written faux history. I’m taking issue with what George has written in Fire and Blood because I LIKE his other works like ASOIAF and the Dunk and Egg stories. I’m critical of George’s work here because I find it inferior to his other work; it’s his fault for setting such a high standard with his previous work, and then resorting to such inferior, subpar writing standards for F&B.
I don’t hate women, or illegitimate children, or POCs, or whatever claims you want to throw at me because I have a different opinion than you on a set of fictional characters. I dislike bad story-telling; simple as.
Apologies for accusing you of being a bigot. You just sound so intensely hung up on things like the birth status of characters that it sounded a lot like the rhetoric I’ve unfortunately been seeing from a lot of team green fans. Particularly the incorrect use of the term gaslighting. You are very clearly engaging with this story from a military strategy lens, which is fair enough if that is what you find interesting. Personally, it bores me to tears. I find the human side more interesting, and to be honest, a lot of the poor writing choices you pick up on definitely seem to be coming from a ‘what is the most rational thing for x to do’ approach. But so often decisions characters make comes down to mistakes, or being stupid, or because of emotions, or people being people. Which works better in a format like ASOIAF rather than Fire and Blood.
Like it is dumb luck for instance that Tyrion’s decision to confront his father during his escape didn’t lead to his arrest, because Tywin just happened to be on the toilet. But in ASOIAF it works because we’re in his head, we know it is an emotional decision not a calculated one, we can ignore the writer’s hand placing Tywin on the toilet and enjoy the thematic significance of Tywin having the most undignified death possible. I can in no way claim GRRM to be a military strategist, but I imagine that where he falls short on that front in ASOIAF it doesn’t matter as much to you because the military strategy isn’t the point. Not that GRRM is unconcerned with it, obviously he cares very deeply about depicting the realistic outcomes and asking what was aragorn’s tax policy etc. But 'the human heart in conflict with itself’ is more often than not what he is most concerned with.
Military strategy also isn’t the point in Fire and Blood. GRRM wrote it as a critique of the way historical accounts are written, the fun in reading it is in the conflicting accounts and trying to figure out which has the most element of truth in it, if any of them. Maybe one of Munken, Mushroom or Septon Euston’s account of Jace’s time with Cregan is true, maybe they each have an element of truth, maybe they’re all wrong. Maybe Rhaenyra wept or laughed at Maelor’s death, maybe she showed no emotion at all. Maybe Criston Cole rejected Rhaenyra’s attempts to seduce him, maybe Criston Cole was a spurned lover, or maybe the reader can use a modern lens and look at this 22-year-old man who was made the sworn shield to a 7-year-old and conclude that he is a nonce.
This critique of biased historiography is what GRRM put more effort into, that’s why he picked that particular format. Again fair enough if you prefer a detailed military strategy, but considering the amount of fictional history GRRM has to cover I think its fair enough he didn’t put that much thought into it. Its easier to thoroughly explore the realistic impact of a military decision when you’re writing for the level of detail and focus that’s in ASOIAF. Fire and Blood is just stretched far too thin to ever expect that.
That being said, I still think its fair enough that the realm follows Rhaenyra despite their prejudices. Oathbreaking is a matter of honour within the culture of this world, and they do also have a medieval understanding of genetics. Catelyn doesn’t think much of Cersei’s kids being blond at first, because most of her own children don’t look like Ned. On that front, Robert and Laenor aren’t in the same position. Laenor knowingly agreed to a surrogate, while Robert had no clue about his wife’s adultery.
(Also Lynesse and Alerie having silver blond hair might have something to do with Rhaena Targaryen marrying Garmund Hightower)
I misremembered about Laenor being a baby, but it was still a case of a child vs an adult. It won’t be the last time a child gets passed over in favour of an adult for the iron throne. And again, the lords of westeros had many years to get used to Rhaenyra being the heir, and 5 sons would have been in her favour. Plus in the book, she had been attending council meetings since she was 8 (it enraged me so much when the show gave the cupbearer role the demeaning modern association of 'female colleague forced to fetch the drinks’ rather than a ceremonial role to give young heirs training). Most people in Westeros also would never meet Harwin in person, so it would be easier for them to dismiss the rumours of the boys parentage as gossip and explain their appearance as their Arryn and Baratheon genes (definitely the reason why Rhaenyra includes her Arryn heritage in her personal sigil). If they heard rumours about Aegon being a lazy glutton and then met Jace, looking a lot more promising despite being only 14, then they probably would have gone 'yeah this kid will probably be the better option’.
A lot of the worldbuilding in ASOIAF is also arguably a result of the events in Fire and Blood. I’m not saying prejudice against bastards wasn’t already present in Westeros, but you do get characters in ASOIAF referring to events such as the Blackfyre rebellion as an example of why bastards are untrustworthy. The Westeros that was fine with Jace as heir, that was fine with Orys Baratheon founding a new house, that was fine with Alyn Velaryon ruling Driftmark, is a different Westeros to the one in ASOIAF. And the Seven Kingdoms that were founded in large part by two warrior queens is still unwelcoming of women who defy gender norms. In fact a very common reading of F&B is to trace how the role of queen consort has changed from the days of Visenya and Alysanne to being a role with less political power, showing a decline in the position of Targ women over time. So its not necessarily inconsistent with ASOIAF, though again GRRM’s ability to explore these cultural changes properly is stretched thin by the sheer scope of F&B.
Again, fair enough if you don’t like F&B for it. But to be honest, this all started from a post about fleshing characters out to make a family civil war more dramatically satisfying and more in keeping with the themes of the book. It somehow became about whether Jace had an military impact on the outcome of the dance. I think its fair to say that we just find very different things important when engaging with this story.
I not expecting everyone to make the 100% rational decision, my issue is that there are so many instances in the Dance where decision-making is so obviously flawed or outright incompetent, but the story itself is unaware or it. This doesn’t just pertain to military decision-making mind you; Rhaenyra’s policy of taxing the hell out of King’s Landing makes no sense when one considers that she should have a variety of options. Braavos and the other Free Cities have their banks and could offer loans, but this possibility is never broached. We know that Mysaria and Daemon have spies in the city, the latter allegedly has one on the Green Council, but none of them were aware of the treasury being removed from the city or had any inkling of where the money might have gone? These aren’t nitpicks, they are derived from information that George himself provides in his works, and would greatly alter the course of his narrative if he actually took them into account. If your story relies upon characters “kinda forgetting” about major information, then once again you’re dealing in bad storytelling.
You claim that oathbreaking is serious business in the story, but this creates a massive plot hole if you take it in that direction. So all Jaehaerys had to do was make the 7K swear an oath to support his incestuous marriage, no “Doctrine of Exceptionalism” necessary? Your telling me that all Daena had to do was demand that Viserys II and the lords of Westeros swear an oath to her and she could succeed after Baelor I died? An oath made when the king had no sons to succeed him and that was made to prevent his unpopular brother from becoming king, still applies when the king has a son and that unpopular brother is married to the daughter the oath was sworn to? And clearly such oaths didn’t have universal support, because both the Stormlands and Westerlands supported Aegon without exception. Again, this is bad writing on George’s part, and ignores his own previous world-building in the name of getting the story he wanted.
Orys Baratheon founded a house because he was marrying the last heir of House Durrandon, and he had Aegon the conqueror backing him up. There’s no comparison to be made whatsoever. And Rhaenys and Visenya were consorts, not queens; it was Aegon who was the ruler of the 7K, even if they assisted him. This doesn’t get around the issue that George created for himself by having the Council of 101 reject a male claimant for being of a female lineage, but magically being okay with a Queen with obvious bastards despite her having a legitimate brother.
I was responding to your incorrect claims, but this still comes back to your point about bad writing. You are not out of line to complain about characters being poorly served in the show. But as I pointed out in response, the issue still comes back to those being bqked into the source material. Source material that is some of George’s weakest, most inconsistent writing; source material that depends on him ignoring his own world-building to have the story he wants.
